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1. Grant W Galloway

   December 17, 2023 at 5:49 pm

   I have read through this and I find it interesting that a finite man is questioning the Creator’s Holy Judgment. It reminds me of Mat 4:7  Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. This was of course Jesus’ reply to satan. James 1:13 says, “When tempted, no one should say, ‘God is tempting me.’ For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone.” So, what did Jesus really say when he used the word Tempt? According to Thayers Greek Definitions the word Tempt means ̓κπειράζω ekpeirazō
   Thayer Definition:
   1) to prove, test, thoroughly
   2) to put to proof God’s character and power
   The “put to proof” is putting God’s Character on Trial. In other words the accuser of the brethren was told point blank DO NOT PUT GOD’S CHARACTER ON TRIAL. Which is essentially what you are doing. Honestly, you should reconsider your position on this matter. Jesus is very clear about this accusation against the character of God.

   Reply

   • Dirk Waren

     December 18, 2023 at 1:32 pm

     Hi Grant.

     Thanks for the interest and comment.

     You’re assuming that we’re “putting God’s character on trial,” but we are not. We are putting the religious doctrine of unsaved humans suffering eternal roasting torture in the Lake of Fire on trial. This is in line with what the Scriptures teach. After all, we are instructed to call out those who teach false doctrines (1 Timothy 1:3) usually due to not “rightly dividing the Word of Truth” (2 Timothy 2:15). The way this is to be carried out is through the teaching and correction of the God-breathed Scriptures (2 Timothy 3:16-17). Please notice that the basis of teaching and correction is not religious tradition or what happens to be a popular doctrine, but rather the Holy Scriptures. With that in mind, here’s what the Bible teaches about the eternal fate of unrepentant people:

     The LORD’s judgment for anyone whose name is not found written in the book of life is to be cast into the lake of fire, which is described as the “second death.” This is the judgment of the unrepentant wicked spoken of in Hebrews in terms of “raging fire that will consume the enemies of God” (Hebrews 10:26-27).

     Paul described the second death as “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9) while Jesus was even more explicit:

     “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One [God] who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna).”
     Matthew 10:28

     God’s going to literally destroy the unrepentant wicked in the lake of fire, not preserve them for eternal roasting torture. Christ elsewhere described human damnation in terms of “eternal punishment” (Matthew 25:46) but there’s a difference between eternal punishment and eternal punishing. The Greek word for “punishment” is kolasis (KOL-as-is), which refers to a “penal infliction” and is therefore a judicial sentence. Jesus does not say in Matthew 25 what the penal infliction will be, only that it will take place in the lake of fire (“the eternal fire”) and that this infliction will last forever (that is, take place in the age-to-come, which lasts forever). Since Christ doesn’t specify what exactly the penal sentence is, we must therefore turn to the rest of Scripture for answers. “Scripture interprets Scripture” is an interpretational rule. And we see above that Jesus plainly said God would “destroy both soul and body” in the lake of fire.

     For additional evidence, consider these four points that reinforce each other:

     1. Christ and the apostles plainly taught what would happen to ungodly people when they suffer “the second death.” They taught that:

     • the ungodly would die (John 11:26 & Romans 8:13),
     • that they would experience death (John 8:51, Romans 6:23 & James 5:20),
     • that destruction would occur (Matthew 7:13 & 2 Peter 3:7),
     • that both their souls and bodies would be destroyed (Matthew 10:28 & James 4:12),
     • and that they would perish (John 3:16 & 2 Peter 3:9).

     As you can see, the Bible continually speaks of the eternal fate of the unrepentant wicked in explicit terms of destruction: “die,” “death,” “destruction,” “destroy” and “perish.” I refer to this as the “language of destruction.” The Holy Spirit wrote the Scriptures via people of God (2 Peter 1:20-21) and the terminology the Holy Spirit chose to use was the language of destruction, not the language of eternal conscious torture.

     2. In a desperate effort to repudiate the above, advocates of eternal torture try to claim that the Greek word translated as “destroy” and “perish” in passages like Matthew 10:28 and John 3:16 — apollumi (ah-POHL-loo-mee) — means “destruction, not of being, but of well-being.” However this is easily disproven because Jesus used this very word (as conveyed by Luke) to describe the incineration of the people of Sodom (Luke 17:29). Bear in mind that both the Old and New Testaments detail that Sodom & Gomorrah were burned to ashes and, even more, that this total incineration is an example of what will happen to the ungodly on the day of judgment (2 Peter 2:6). What word did Christ use to describe this incineration in Luke 17:29? Why, appolumi, the very same word translated as “destroy” in Matthew 10:28 and “perish” in John 3:16. Enough said.

     3. Backing up the above two points are the unmistakable examples of literal destruction used in reference to the second death, like weeds thrown into fire and burned (Matthew 13:40). Tell me, what happens to weeds cast into fire? Do they burn forever and ever without ever quite burning up or do they burn for a little while, but ultimately burn up? “Burn up” is incidentally the way John the Baptist described human damnation in Matthew 3:12 and Luke 3:17. Then there’s Jesus’ example of the enemies of the king (figurative of Christ) being brought before him and executed in front of him, not preserved and perpetually tormented in his presence (Luke 19:27). Another great example is that of “hell” itself. The only Greek word translated as “hell” in English Bibles that’s applicable to the second death is Gehenna, which literally means Valley of Hinnom or Hinnom Valley. This ravine was a trash dump and incinerator located outside the southwest walls of Jerusalem at the time of Christ. You can see it on close-up maps of Jerusalem in the backs of most Bibles. Jesus used Gehenna as a figure for the lake of fire & human damnation and his listeners readily understood it. Trash and carcasses of animals & despised criminals weren’t thrown into Gehenna to be preserved, but rather to be discarded and eradicated. It’s the same with unrighteous rebels on Judgment Day when they’re cast into the lake of fire.

     4. The above points are further reinforced by the fact that eternal life and immortality are only available to people through the gospel of Christ, as clearly shown in 2 Timothy 1:10 and Romans 2:7. Jesus plainly said that human beings are mortal apart from redemption. As for angelic spirits, they possess intrinsic immortality, even wicked spirits (Luke 20:34-36), which explains why the lake of fire — aka, the “eternal fire” — was “prepared for the devil and his angels” as their eternal habitation (Matthew 25:41). However, human beings are mortal apart from redemption in Christ. The very reason the LORD was sure to banish Adam & Eve from the Garden of Eden was so that they wouldn’t “eat of the tree of life and live forever” (Genesis 3:22-24) and thus suffer the same fate as the devil and his angels. Only the redeemed will be allowed to “eat of the tree of life” and live forever (Revelation 2:7).

     For important details, please peruse through HELL KNOW and SHEOL KNOW.

     God Bless You, Brother.

     Your Servant,

2. Angelo Guerra

   June 26, 2022 at 3:34 am

   You missed that part in revelations that says that people who followed the beast will be tormented forever. It’s a shame that you threw away your knowledge for false doctrine. All you’ve done is dance around scripture to try to prove your point instead of just taking it as is.

   Reply

   • Dirk Waren

     June 26, 2022 at 9:41 pm

     Hi Angelo.

     Nice to hear from you and thanks for the interest.

     Revelation 14:9-11 says that “the smoke of their torment rises forever.” “Smoke” indicates they will be burned up and “torment” refers to the anguish experienced while being burned up. This coincides with Psalm 37:20: “But the wicked shall PERISH… Into smoke they shall VANISH AWAY.” It also corresponds to John the Baptists emphasis that the “chaff”, the unrepentant, would be burned up (Matthew 3:12 & Luke 3:17). Furthermore, the SAME TERMINOLOGY is used in Isaiah 34:9-10 in regards to Edom where the rest of that chapter shows that Edom will be a desolate desert and the people “totally destroyed.”

     The SAME TERMINOLOGY is also used in reference to ‘Babylon’ in Revelation 18-19. Chapter 18 speaks of “the smoke of her burning” (vv. 9 & 18) and of “her torment” (verses 10 & 15), and 19:3 says, “The smoke from her goes up forever.” Yet 18:8 makes it clear that “She will be CONSUMED BY FIRE” just as this entire earth will be destroyed (2 Peter 3:10-11).

     “Scripture interprets Scripture” is a hermeneutical rule for good reason. Those of us who teach & preach the God-breathed Scriptures are obligated to “rightly divide” them, which means to correctly handle them and thus correctly interpret them (2 Timothy 2:15).

     For details on Revelation 14:9-11 go to this chapter of HELL KNOW and scroll down to the section titled “The Smoke of their Torment Rises Forever.”

     For scriptural details on the topic of human damnation in general, start with the opening chapter of HELL KNOW. We examine hundreds of pertinent verses and not just the few that are often milked for details to support never-ending roasting torment.

     All you’ve done is dance around scripture to try to prove your point instead of just taking it as is.

     That’s what this site is all about, brother — taking Holy Scripture for what it plainly says on the topic. For instance, Christ declared that God would destroy both body and soul in the lake of fire (Matthew 10:28), because “the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23).

     The Bible clearly says that, apart from the good news of the message of Christ, human beings do NOT have immortality (2 Timothy 1:10 & Romans 2:7). Thus the unrepentant will be consumed by raging fire on Judgment Day (Hebrews 10:26-27). This corresponds to the many crystal clear EXAMPLES of literal destruction the Lord gave, such as Matthew 13:40 and Luke 19:27. Tell me, what happens to weeds cast into fire, as Christ said? Do they burn forever and ever without ever quite burning up or do they burn for a bit but eventually BURN UP?

     All of this explains why God’s word proclaims: “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them” (John 3:36), which is also obvious in the most popular verse of the Bible: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16).

     It’s a shame that you threw away your knowledge for false doctrine.

     The basis for correct doctrine, brother, is not dubious religious tradition, but rather the God-breathed Scriptures (2 Timothy 3:16-17 & 1 Corinthians 4:6). As Jesus Christ said, “The truth will set you free” (John 8:31-32).

     God Bless You as You Seek & Serve.

     Your Servant,

3. Mark Thomas

   December 24, 2021 at 7:52 am

   To Dirk: I have to respectfully disagree with you that  ALL angels possess immortality. Luke 20:36 says that the children of the resurrection will no longer die, for they will be like the angels. However, if you look at Matthew 22:30, the meaning is more clear. In this verse, Jesus said that at the resurrection the children of the resurrection will be like the angels of God in heaven. 

   Matthew 22:30 
   At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

   And in Mark 12:25 Jesus said that they will be like the angels in heaven.

   Mark 12:25
   When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

    So all three of these verses talking about the resurrection of God’s children only mean “God’s angels.” And notice here, what this evil spirit had exclaimed to Jesus Christ. He was afraid that he had already come to eliminate them. 

   Mark 1:23,24
   Just then a man in their synagogue who was possessed by an impure spirit cried out, “What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God!”

   And I have much more biblical evidence than this. Much more! Can I send can send you a PDF file of the BIBLICAL PROOF that I have at this email address?  >>  dawaren@msn.com 

   Reply

   • Dirk Waren

     December 24, 2021 at 5:08 pm

     Hi Mark.

     Yes, you’re welcome to write me & send material to that email address.

     As to your point about comparing Luke 20:36 with the parallel accounts of Matthew 22:30 and Mark 12:25, it’s nevertheless notable that God allowed one of these three accounts in the Holy Scriptures to not include the addition of “in heaven.” Furthermore, Christ plainly called satan’s filthy minions “angels” in Matthew 25:41. This shows that, while they’re decidedly fallen, they are still angels just like a fallen person is still a human being created in God’s image & likeness.

     Even more, these fallen angels yet function in the heavenly realms, which explains the Bible’s description of them as “the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms” (Ephesians 6:12). Of course this is a lower heavenly realm than the one where’s God’s throne is located, but it’s still technically a heavenly realm; it’s the dark heavenlies or “underworld,” the spiritual dimension that parallels or underpins the earth & universe. You can read details about the ‘three heavens’ here.

     In addition, the Scriptures show that at least some fallen angels are obligated to visit God’s heaven from time to time, like satan reporting to the Sovereign LORD along with the other archangels, aka chief angels (Job 1:6 & 2:1). Another example would be 2 Chronicles 18:18-22 wherein the “deceiving spirit” amidst the other angels in God’s throne room in heaven is obviously a fallen angel.

     As to your point about Mark 1:24, this is covered in HELL KNOW Chapter Four (the print version), in the section Apollumi Used in Reference to the Damnation of Fallen Angels. Here’s what it says:

     The Greek word apollumi is used once in the Bible in reference to the eternal fate of evil spirits in Mark 1:24 with Matthew 8:29 showing that it refers, more specifically, to (eternal) torment. In this case we have no choice but to apply a secondary definition of apollumi — “ruin” — obviously because wicked spirits possess unconditional immortality. Human beings, by contrast, lack such immortality until the resurrection of the righteous, as shown in Luke 20:34-36 and 2 Timothy 1:10. When apollumi is used in reference to the eternal punishment of human beings it refers to destruction in the sense of complete incineration. This is supported by several obvious factors already covered:

     1. When Jesus and other biblical characters used apollumi in reference to human damnation it was meant in the sense of complete incineration because Christ used the same word to describe the destruction of Sodom, as conveyed by the Holy Spirit in Luke 17:29. Sodom and Gomorrah were burned to ashes as a biblical example of what will happen to the ungodly on “the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men” (2 Peter 2:6 & 3:7). For details see Chapter One’s “Destroy both Soul and Body” as in Complete Incineration.

     2. The Bible plainly shows that eternal life and immortality are only available to human beings through the gospel of Christ (2 Timothy 1:10), which was covered earlier this chapter.

     3. Apollumi isn’t the only Greek or Hebrew word used to refer to human damnation. Chapter One shows several other Greek words variously translated as die, death, destruction, destroy and perish. And the rest of this book reveals several more Greek & Hebrew words. These words collectively constitute “language of destruction,” not language of eternal roasting preservation. The common meaning of these words is plain to even a child, but eternal torturists have twisted them to mean the precise opposite of their general definition — living forever in torment separate from God. This is such blatant error it’s absurd.
     In light of this “language of destruction” the issue of human damnation doesn’t hinge on a secondary meaning of a single Greek word — apollumi — or the fact that this word is used once in reference to evil spirits (who are different in nature to human beings in that they possess intrinsic immortality). The prominent definition of apollumi — “to literally perish, destroy” — is backed-up by numerous other Greek & Hebrew words that verify this definition for human damnation.

     4. Lastly, these words are, in turn, reinforced by the Bible’s numerous figurative examples of literal destruction, like weeds cast into fire, Luke 19:27, the nature of the earthly Gehenna (aka the Valley of Hinnom), the burning to ashes of Sodom & Gomorrah, and so forth. These examples are so simple and obvious that you’d have to be a cemetery graduate to mistake them.

     Also in the section in Chapter Four What about the Devil and his Angels I end with this relevant statement:

     Remember Jesus’ statement from Luke 20:35-36 that, when the righteous are resurrected, they “can never die; for they are like the angels”? The righteous will become like the angels in the sense that they will inherit unconditional immortality and thus will never again be able to die. The righteous will, in essence, become “immortal souls.” This is the only sense that the immortal soul doctrine is biblically valid (see Romans 2:7). The downside to this is that if any partakers of this resurrection should choose to rebel against God at some point in the age to come they would have to suffer the same fate as the devil and his angels. Why? Naturally because they possess unconditional immortality and can never die.

     This shows that the Almighty’s sentence of the devil and his loser demons to eternal torment in the lake of fire is both punitive and exemplary. Let me explain: Since these fallen angels possess unconditional immortality and cannot die the LORD created the lake of fire as their eternal prison, which is their eternal judgment & punishment. This, in turn, will serve as an example to all His creatures in the eternal age-to-come, including human beings. I seriously doubt that any of us will rebel in the age-to-come in light of the everlasting example of the devil & his foolish followers, but the possibility will exist since people will always possess free moral agency. After all, God would take little joy in creating robots programmed to love and obey him.

     I should point out that there are many adherents of literal everlasting destruction who reject this idea that fallen angels will suffer never-ending torment in the lake of fire. They believe that they too will ultimately cease to exist, even if it takes eons of time. I have open-mindedly considered their position, but am persuaded by Scripture in maintaining the stance presented here. However, this is a detail matter and shouldn’t cause division. Who cares about them anyway?

     In regards to your additional evidence, please don’t share Isaiah 14:12-17 and Ezekiel 28:12-19 to support the position that the devil will be literally destroyed. Those passages parallel satan with the kings of Babylon and Tyre respectively, which corresponds to the prophetic law of double reference. As such, parts of those verses apply to the king in question or to the devil; and some to both. It’s the reader’s responsibility to discern which. The prophecies of destruction apply specifically to the human kings, as verified in this article.

     As I conveyed in my previous post, it helps to grasp the proverbial big picture of what’s going on in a universal/heavenly scope, which you can read about here.

     Lastly, with detail-oriented topics like this, it’s preferable that you write me at my email address. It’s just an easier format for somewhat complex issues like this. Thanks!

     Your Servant,

4. Mark Thomas

   December 5, 2021 at 6:25 am

   To Dirk Waren: What do you think about the ultimate destruction of Satan and the fallen angels? After all, the Bible says that God alone has immortality. If you believe that, what Scriptures do you think actually support that?

   In Christ, Mark Thomas

   Reply

   • Dirk Waren

     December 5, 2021 at 10:55 pm

     Hi Mark.

     Nice to hear from you. Those are good questions.

     It’s not an issue of what I believe, but rather of what the Holy Scriptures teach abiding by obvious hermeneutical guidelines, like “Scripture interprets Scripture,” “Context is king” and so on.

     Yes, the Bible plainly teaches that God alone is immortal (1 Timothy 6:16), but this obviously refers to immortality in the absolute sense — no beginning and no ending. After all, if it meant that no other being can attain immortality then that would mean that believers in Christ wouldn’t be able to acquire immortality and eternal life, which we know is false in light of many glaring passages (e.g. Romans 2:7 & 2 Timothy 1:10).

     That verse in 2 Timothy says Christ “has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.” It’s talking about mortal humans having the privilege to receive immortality and eternal life through the message of Christ, which is one of the reason it’s “Good News.” As it is written: “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.” (John 3:36).

     What do you think about the ultimate destruction of Satan and the fallen angels?

     The Bible actually doesn’t say that the devil & his filthy angels will be destroyed (Revelation 20:10) because angelic beings possess intrinsic immortality (Luke 20:34-36), which explains why the lake of fire was prepared for — created for — fallen angels as their eternal habitation (Matthew 25:41). Human beings, by contrast, do not possess immortality apart from Christ, as detailed above.

     This truth can be plainly observed in God’s statement after Adam fell into sin: “He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, AND LIVE FOREVER” (Genesis 3:22-24). In other words, the LORD had to banish Adam & Eve from the Garden of Eden so they would not eat of the tree of life and live forever in a fallen state, like the devil & his angels. Read that again. Only the redeemed in Christ will be allowed to partake of the tree of life and live forever (Revelation 2:7 & 22:14). Thus, from that point on (the fall & banishment of Adam & Eve), God’s purpose was to provide redemption for fallen humanity in order that they might be reconciled to their Creator and obtain eternal life. That’s what the gospel of Christ is all about (John 3:16,36).

     Foolish people who refuse reconciliation through Christ will be discarded in the lake of fire — God’s garbage dump — and destroyed, soul and body, because they don’t have immortality (Matthew 10:28, Hebrews 10:26-27 & Luke 19:27). As it is written: “the wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23).

     For those who argue that Isaiah 14:12-17 and Ezekiel 28:12-19 support the position that the devil will be literally destroyed, they don’t. Those passages parallel satan with the kings of Babylon and Tyre respectively, which corresponds to the prophetic law of double reference. As such, parts of those verses apply to the king in question or to the devil; and some to both. It’s the reader’s responsibility to discern which. The prophecies of destruction apply specifically to the human kings, as verified in this article.

     These issues are covered in more detail in both HELL KNOW and SHEOL KNOW. For instance, see Chapter 4 of the former and scroll down to the section What about the Devil and his Angels?

     For insights on the proverbial big picture of what’s going on with God, angelic beings, humans and the earth & universe see this article.

     Your Servant,

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   • Dirk Waren

     November 18, 2020 at 7:58 pm

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6. Jeff LaFortune

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   Reply

   • Dirk Waren

     October 25, 2020 at 11:33 pm

     Sure, Jeff.

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